Philosophy at Odd Hours: Discuss – Are Hawkeye and Black Widow screwing?

Philosophy at Odd Hours

(Where SamanthaMaybe and AlanahSees talk about all the things)

Originally posted: OCTOBER 14, 2012

Alanah: i have a question for you a very deep, robing question
and i want you to answer honestly

Sam: lol

not robing


do you think Clint and Natasha are screwing?

i mean it’s not like I haven’t thought about this before

of course
i mean, who hasnt, really

  I feel like I just assumed it was happening, at least post-avengers
because now like, because Nick said they “aren’t being tracked” even though that’s bullthey probably feel more free from any kind of constraints, professionally or otherwise that they may have had


 so I think the best chance of it happening is after the movie, but it’s still very possible that it happened before

 *is thoughtful*

  i don’t think they’d be the kind of people to do or not do something they really wanted to do just because Nick Fury told them so

  i often get the sense that clint and nat are so very complicated, and yet somehow really really simple

 but I do think they’re both smart enough not to get involved while actively on a case or something

well yeah, i agree
 i dont think fury could tell them not to and theyd just listen to him
 i mean, nat could kill him with one thigh
 just the thigh


no joints or other body parts

 nope, just a thigh to the face he’d be done

 yeah, no i agree that i dont think theyd get over emotional about it
but i mean, its interesting to think about
because on the one hand
if they never have, there’s something unspoken
like, there has to be
this is, of course, only in the whedon verse
because prior to that, incarnations of black widow seemed asexual or completely into captain america, imo
in comics and animated movies
but for whedon, he made reeeeally specific choices

 yeah and Hawkeye is just…purple skirt man…

 their talk about compromise and being compromised, the casual way they touch, very often
and how nat doesnt say “no” when loki asks
she says “love is for children”
implying that she is an adult, and what she feels is bigger, more mature, more powerful, and more important than something as confining as love

 yeah i mean, the fact that we know that Hawkeye chose not to kill her means that they must have shared something together

 and i think i find that idea appealing

 whether it was her like coming to his rescue in some way, or him coming to know her better and feeling some emotional attachment to her

 that her and clint could either be this unspoken thing that never gets physical, but is distinctly more than sibling-affectionate or filial in any way

 even if it was just as one assassin to another, like respecting her work or being impressed by her

 that her and clint get physical, but also maintain this idea that emotion isnt something immediately available to them
both because of their jobs and lifestyles, but also out of some kind of self-imposed penance

 he has to have some attachment to her

 and because, well, they’re simply traumatised
of course he does, but, in a fight, he’d do his utmost not to put her above the mission
as she did
i think that what i find appealing about clint and nat, is that it seems possible that it doesnt matter if theyre screwing
but i still want to know, for myself
*thoughtful again*
i feel like its difficult to imagine widow ever letting her guard down enough to be naked, un-armed, eyes closed, and lost with someone
i can see clint doing it, and able to snap back into militant action within a split second
much like a bowstring
but i dont see nat being as capable of it….
i dont see show she could orgasm that way, of course, but i also dont see clint pushing her to even try to get physical if he knows that about her, you know?

  i don’t know, i mean if we’re assuming that she’s emotionally invested in the sex then yeah I could see it possibly being difficult for her but if she’s just screwing for the sake of screwing

 well, i mean, even when you’re not emotionally invested in sex, its leaves you vulnerable
just in terms of the lack of armor and or weaponry

 I could totally picture her being able to kick someone’s ass naked and still being completely terrifying

 well, yeah
i mean, im pretty sure widow could kill someone with her vagina if she needed to

 i mean she practically killed 4 buff russian dudes in a little black dress and ripped tights…

but she seems so….well, id say focused, but that brings up the other thing
so often in whedons verse, we see widow about to break or about to cry or about to be a girl about something, and then she’s all “just kidding”
and i still havent decided whether she just opens a door and lets it out for a minute and then shuts it
or if she’s really just that good a faker
because one is supremely more vulnerable a person than the other
if she’s really just that good an actress, i dont think she’d have sat still and shaky after hulk broke the hovercraft
“broke the hovercraft”
so im inclined to think that its the former, that she just opens and closes some kind of emotional door

 i would agree

 which makes her, weirdly, a lot more like the hulk than anyone else
because i dont think its possible to control the emotion when the door is just open like that

 but i think that she also has an acute awareness of how she behaves and how others interpret her behaviorbecause she is also so attuned to everyone elses behavior

 like, you cant control the flow, just the flow time, kinda thing
yeah id agree
i think she probably reads people far better than anyone realizes

 so while I’m ok with the idea that when we see her feeling hurt or upset it is genuine, I also think she would only ever let anyone see that when it’s appropriate

 whereas id believe that clint memorized all the files on the other avengers

 she’s able to choose the right moments to let us see what she’s really feeling, otherwise she just keeps her mask on

 id gather natasha didnt even have to read them to know everything, and she probably knows more than what is in the files, just from observing a conversation from each
yeah im fine with this idea too
i agree, she controls the moments, but when she lets it out, its real
so allowing that, id have to posit that she opens the door if and when she’s in bed with clint
if for no other reason than she would think it unfair not to
unfair to him

 yeah i mean, I hope that she would at least have one person in the world that she could take her mask off for

 like, i wouldnt hesitate to say that clint probably describes the way he feels for nat in simple “i love her” terms
but he’d never say it, because he knows she doesnt want or need him to
and he’d never push her to say it, because he gets her
he always has, i spose
even before they had a friendship or partnership or whatever, he saw something in her that made him safe her life
i mean, theyd never call it love at first sight, obviously, but i guess thats as close as you can get, really

 yeah i would love to know what happened

 “IMA KILL Y-…whoa. jk, wanna come be good with me?”
i mean, im sure its all in comic canon
its just been aaaaages since i read anything
and most of my avenger knowledge pre-whedon is in animated series/movies
i agree with you tho – hawk/widow would have to have started immediately before Avengers or immediately afterward
but i mean, just looking at them from early in the movie, in meetings, to in battle, to shawarma
theyre practically cuddling at shawarma

 well we don’t really have a good sense of how long they’re known each other, so I don’t know if it would’ve had to have been immediately before

 im assuming that the time theyve known each other has been years
because widow didnt start working for shield until after her encounters with barton
and it wouldve taken months for them to trust her
before ever sending her to stark, in iron man 2
and then thor happens chronologically afterward, so we can assume at least two, maybe up to five years since she joined shield?
i mean, im pretty sure romanov had been killing folks since she was a child
so she wouldve been in hare late teens, very early twenties when she got shield-ed anyway
(shield-ed! see what i did there! ha!)

 yeah i think it’s possible that her and clint had something before she was sent to work with Tony though


 yeah i mean if it had been years

 i mean, i would think theyd have to build a really serious trust before she even let him get close
clint might be willing to let her in, but i would think she’d take time to crack, you know?

 maybe it wasn’t long before she was put on assignment with him, but it’s possible

 i dont think its been a decade or anything
but at least 4 years seems…sufficient
assuming they tackle 6-9 assignments or so a year…

 yeah well i don’t know, then the only thing that would’ve made a difference would’ve been the avengers…and we know that she already had “not-love” sentiments toward clint during the movie

 perhaps a third of them together…

 because she also wasn’t with tony for that long, she didn’t stay with him after Iron man 2 did she?

 thatd give them plenty of history, close quarters, awkward naked moments, injuries, near death experiences, etc
no, and she wasnt ever really “with” tony, she was always working for shield, spyin on him
yeah, but i imagine she’d have “not-love” sentiments for him for a while before shed have “not-love-sex” with him

 right but she wasn’t like at SHIELD headquarters, she was closer to Tony that whole movie

 i mean, in iron man two, i got the sense she wasnt ever attached to tony

 right no, i didn’t either

 she was only ever fulfilling the terms of her assignment
and her assignment was long term, eyes on tony, protect the iron man, assess
that whole time clint couldve been on another assignment, and they reconvened after
she was very clinical in IM2
gosh, her legs
*shakes head*
psycho legs

 especially when you realize she’s just trying to be like coy and a tiny bit ditzy because she thinks tony will like it so he’ll trust herhaha yes
psycho legs

i figure somewhere between IM2 and Thor there woulda been things, but post-Thor feels more likely to me
either post Thor, or post-Avengers
poor captain america
no one loves you
unless you read fanfiction

 no someone loves him…she’s just super old…

 in which you’re having raucous wild sex with tony and/or loki

 hahaha yup

no, she’s dead, dear

 not in the deleted scenes!


 yeah you don’t see her or anything

 in certain versions, she either marries bucky, and then dies, and he visits her grave

 he just has military records from people he was with, and hers is the only one that doesn’t say deceased on it

 or she’s old and in a nursing home, and all The Notebook about it, dementia and all that
doesnt even remember him
totes sad
well, i mean, bucky died in the movie
so i figure she could be alive

 heh yeah

 but shed prolly just die right away anyway
and besides, i can see why that scene was deleted
its a loose end for the cap that he’d have to chase
so itd impede the story
sorry cap
no love or happiness for you
you dark, sad, man-out-of-time you
*single perfect tear*
he should watch doctor who

 yeah there were actually a lot of deleted scenes for Cap

returning momentarily to clint/nat
now that we’ve ironed out the emotional/characteristic implications of it
its time to get serious.
what is their sex like?


because like, lets be real

 i think i just made that face
like for realzies

natasha could do insane things
with her body


 like, acrobatic STUPID stuff
and clint is just as bad

 crazy russian acrobat stuff

 i mean, he hangs out in rafters
finger strength


 oh man

 oh god

 she prob spouts russian
i mean, they both prob speak at least seven languages a piece


they probs curse and stuff in all kinds of lingos
i see what you did there.

 my fingers had a freudian slip

i mean, they probs get a bit competitive
because theyre both strong, and can wrestle like nobodies business
they prob fight to dominate
and prob both like the challenge of being subdued a bit
so theyre totes beating each other up like, all the time
when your fingers have a freudian slip…
well, i dont know what it means
but whatever it is, it means it a lot
the real question is
why why WHY
did widow cut her hair
i mean really


 im all for short hair
*points to self*
but hers was red
like, perfect joy red
and curly
and impeccable
i mean, tell me clint wouldnt pull on that ish all night long



 i would literally kill someone for that hairlike…
in a video game…


 but i’d consider it in real life a lot too…

(ha. ha ha. natch. nat-ch. heh.)


 (im ashamed)


 i doubt they ever role play
and theres no point in dress up
i mean, they do that for work all the time

 they already get to be superheros

 there’s no way theyd run the risk of any bondage, because its too easy to be tied up at the wrong moment

 crazy secret agent superspy superheroes…

 (heh. tied up.)


 im just full of puns today.

 i mean we already know Nat can use the bondage to her advantage

tru dat
maybe she’s had practice

 and clint’s her sparring partner



 they would sooooo make sparring into a sex game
it happens


 they have lots of gym sex
*shakes head*
i mean, we know widow has to do date-y-ness for assignments
you think she’s ever had to actually screw someone for one?
she doesnt in IM2, right?
i cant remember :/
i mean, im sure she would
itd just be work to her
door-closed, you know?
but weird….crappy part of the job, imo

 yeah, i don’t think she does in IM2

cuz ew

 but i totally think she would if she absolutely had to

 yeah, i agree
i imagine she doesnt tell clint tho
i mean, he’d totally not act jealous
but itd still bother him, i think
in the “i know its just work, but MINE” way
….hawkeye is such a birdy in my head
like, i feel like all of characteristics are so birdy or bow-like in my mind

 it’s just because he’s short

yes it is
and natasha is really more feline than bug in my head
thank GOD
or we wouldnt be having this convo

yeah i tend to agree
definitely not bug-like
her movements are too fluid to be bug-ish
clearly my brain wants to give up because i keep typing things incorrectly

mine is doing the same
perhaps we should call it a night (morning) and be satisfied that clint and natasha are in not-love
and having satisfactory, only sort of complicated almost-but-not-really-casual sex

 yup sounds about right

im glad we had this talk